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BBrown's avatar

I appreciate the seriousness and good faith of this piece, and I agree with much of the diagnosis. Incentives d matter. Public systems are not immune to capture, and unions, bureaucracies, and political fear absolutely distort prison policy. We aren't in agreement in that.

Where I part ways is on the conclusion.

If mass incarceration is genuinely a problem (I agree that it is ) then I don’t think reversing your position on private prisons follows. It actually cuts the other way.

The core issue for me is not who runs prisons, but whether anyone is allowed to profit from human confinement , which is a relentless torment that's hard to imagine. And, Once human failure, captivity, or prolonged suffering becomes a revenue source, that incentive leaks into every adjacent decision: sentencing pressure, supervision rules, revocations, contract structures (Commissary, communication access), lobbying priorities. Even if outcomes are sometimes “no worse” (and very often there is evidence that say they are consistently worse) than public facilities, the capitalization of human ruin creates a structural gravity that is extraordinarily hard to counteract.

The argument that private prisons may be easier to close because capital can move elsewhere is interesting in theory, but I don’t see strong evidence for it in practice. What we do see consistently is that private operators lobby to preserve or expand their markets, not shrink themwhich is exactly what basic incentive analysis would predict. The profit motive is simply too powerful to rely on as a reform ally.

It’s also worth noting that while government prisons have deeply flawed incentives of their own, they are at least directly adjustable by public policy. Budgets, sentencing laws, parole standards, staffing models, and oversight can be changed without first overcoming a corporate obligation to shareholders. Public systems are sticky, but profit-seeking systems have strength of a different order.

So while I agree with you that public prisons are badly broken, I don’t think privatization is a corrective. I observe them as an accelerant. If we both accept that mass incarceration is harmful, then allowing any part of it to function as an industry is a contradiction we shouldn’t normalize.

I say all this with respect with appreciation and acknowledgement fir the way you’re willing to change your mind on this substack. I just think this is one of those cases where the original instinct was the right one: no justice system should be financially rewarded for keeping mass people locked up. That line matters.

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Steve Winkler's avatar

Those are all great points, and they continue to resonate with me as they did when I held the same position. This is definitely one where I could see myself changing my mind yet again. New evidence showing a lot of corporate power being exerted that thwarts my thesis would be the most likely source of change.

The way I see it, counter a little bit to what you’re saying, is that corporate interest, while powerful, are one step removed from the decision makers rather than being the decision makers themselves. Both public prisons and private prisons have vested interests who want to preserve and extend the prison system. This is an area where the public’s general demeanor against corporations works in the favor of what is a good policy pursuit— less incarceration. If public interest continues to grow against incarceration, then it will be easy for them to cut ties from the corporate interest that pursues it. Specifically, I see those private prison operators becoming pariah in the public mind.

To be sure that is a theory wrapped in hope. But it is grounded in a lot of evidence that we see when it comes to the public position changing on a particular topic. Think about tobacco in particular. Set aside the fact that I think we’ve gone way overboard with anti-tobacco sentiment and policy. I want to legalize all drugs and that includes tobacco. Still imagine if the government owned and operated cigarette manufacturing and sales. I believe in that world it would be more difficult to pass anti-tobacco legislation. It was much easier to scapegoat the tobacco companies. Again, to be sure they weren’t angels themselves.

So perhaps my change of mind rest a lot with the changing environment of a reduced future prison population, which implies the need to close a lot of prisons. I could be persuaded that this is just a pragmatic change of position based on this new landscape—making my position a bit wishy-washy.

I will say that there’s always someone profiting off of incarceration. That’s where public choice comes into play strongly. Corporations benefit by running profitable prisons. That much is obvious. But it is also the case that the public administrators and people working in the department of corrections also benefit from incarceration. This is less obvious but still true. I think those public actors are somewhat more powerful than the private actors since they are more directly in control of the system. The work of John Pfaff helped me a lot to see this. My point of view was shaped from reading his research and being persuaded by it, and I should’ve referenced him directly in the post.

I would also like to think it is easier to hold private prisons, more liable for bad behavior and bad results than public entities. Again, this is a theory wrapped in hope that has substantiation in other domains.

Appreciate your thoughts for sure, and I would say there is a very good chance you are right and I am wrong on this one.

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